YAHOO HIDING STATS & LOSING GROUND

Foreword by Nightowl: This post was originally written on March 12, 2014. But it still explains in great detail what happened to us, how Yahoo tried to hide it, and how it never got fixed. Now that Verizon wants to delete us out of existence, I figured it was time to bring this back out into the light and see if anyone finally notices. We need to get Verizon to understand that we need more time to save our archives. There are more of us here than everyone thinks.  We are fighting to preserve our history!

Below is the story of how we got here and why.

What really lies beneath the brand new NEO interface Yahoo claims is so wonderful? Want the truth? Below that shiny appearance is disaster.

Classic lies in ruins with its archives in shambles, the photos scrambled, and the NEO  code they tried to replace it with so full of bugs we would need to hire a fleet of exterminators to remove them all.

And here’s the BEST part….it was created and released with all those bugs! Yessirree, Yahoo decided that maybe it would be a great idea to foist this new, non-beta-tested, buggy interface on a random selection of Classic Group Users…with no warning!

That was back in August of 2013. August 4th is the earliest date anyone has provided me for the Neo flip. And as usual, people took to the Yahoo Uservoice forum to comment.

One particular comment, we fondly call the “Top Topic” in Groups, was created on August 7, 2013. It had been the longest running topic we had going down there and the most voted on one.

Return Groups format to prior format that WORKS!

Below is a screen capture of the beginning phrases of that topic. Note the vote count box to the left. (This capture is from a user with a different computer and browser, so the fonts won’t exactly match the next image.)

At its peak, it had over 400 pages of comments with multiple comments to a page. At one point, Yahoo either deleted or merged many comments together, and the number of pages decreased by about 30.

Why do I know this? Because I archived the entire topic to Word…by hand. Hours of painstaking capturing and pasting to preserve the truth about what was taking place because I suspected what would happen, and I was right. Yahoo would try and sweep us under the rug like we never existed.

As of January 28th, it had 58,678 votes. Then Yahoo ‘s 4th quarterly report came out, and what a coincidence, they decided after all this time not only to close this topic, but to also mark it “completed.” That is not only a lie, it’s completely laughable. Nothing is complete about NEO other than that it’s a complete disaster.

Below is some of what Yahoo doesn’t want you to know.

• Since NEO was introduced in August, over 600,000 Yahoo Group users have deleted their groups and quit.
• A large number of Yahoo Group users have been boycotting Yahoo advertisers since September 3rd, 2013. That’s also the date I mailed a letter with comments about users leaving and the boycott to De Castro & Mayer. And we’ve written the advertisers.
• Many Group users have lost years of archives because NEO rendered them unaccessible. Some of what was lost was important business, or  research materials, or even memorials to loved ones.
• And despite NEO being a failure, Yahoo has now started rolling it out overseas! French, Swedish, even German users are discovering that the years of work  stored in databases have been ruined. The accented characters and others have been turned into diamonds and other unrecognizable shapes.
• A number of Group users can’t even get into their groups or the page loads for eternity and never finishes.
• The disabled and blind cannot use the new NEO interface, it causes them physical reactions such as seizures and vertigo. Their equipment no longer works, so Yahoo Groups are no longer ADA qualified.
• Yahoo Groups in NEO do not work on a Mobile phone. Even though that is what NEO was supposedly designed for, they simply DO NOT WORK.
  See image below:

The above is an image taken from one of my moderator’s cell phone. It shows a radio-based Yahoo group, only you can’t see very much of it, and Yahoo replaced the Home Page photo with a stock photo of their own and you can’t even easily tell what it is.

• A number of groups have been overrun by spammers, because the moderation tools are broken. Many groups had to simply give up and close because they could not regulate the spammers.
• For awhile, members were “held hostage.” Yahoo wasn’t allowing us to even delete a group or group member or even leave a group.

And there are MANY MANY more things described in this blog that Yahoo doesn’t want you to know. The above is just a few of them.

After Yahoo closed the top topic on January 28th, some users in my group became so angry they started creating duplicate topics and voting on those, but as fast as they created them, Yahoo declined them. The users were very determined though, and called it the Whack-A-Mole game.

NOTE:  I said declined. Not completed. That was really strange. If return to earlier format was deemed completed, it should apply to all of the same sort of comment. However, it did not…another indication that it isn’t really completed, it’s declined. See image below:

So, in an effort to hide the actuality of the damage done to their Group Users, Yahoo decided on the evening of January 30th, 2014, to change the Uservoice topics so the votes no longer show a tally. Now they are simply ranked. Below is the same topic as above shown in this new format: (Again, with a slightly different font and spacing because it is from a different browser & computer.)

I can think of only one good reason to change complaint topics with 58,000+ votes to 1st ranked: to HIDE the number of complaining users. However, I have the original versions, so they won’t be able to do that.

Yahoo is trying to sweep us and this entire mess under the rug, but we’re not going. We are standing firm, telling the world what’s really happening, and we won’t be intimidated by Mayer & company.

We, the Yahoo Group users, have suffered this NEO abomination for what will be 6 months on February 4th, and it’s time someone did something about stopping it.

The instability and unpredictability of the NEO interface has made it a far more insecure platform where spammers can run rampant and moderation is a joke.

Yahoo’s use of outdated protocols and Java-based stream ads has done nothing but make the Groups platform more vulnerable, unstable, and unsafe.

NEO doesn’t even affect everyone the same way, which feels even more unnerving. Some can’t get in their groups at all or see archives; some can. And some are still in Classic; yes, it still works for some users.

Thank you for taking your time to read this, and I hope that someone will investigate this and tell our story. Yahoo needs to be held accountable for the unthinkable treatment they have been showing one of their most loyal user bases.

Yahoo, undo this disaster. Return us back to Classic Groups. Give the mail users their Classic Mail.  Fix the other services that you have ruined for Finance, Sports and others.

Stop this nonsense now, admit that NEO is a failure, and you might stop the growing exodus from your company, but only if you hurry…because soon it will be too late.

Nightowl >8#

YAHOO NOW HOLDING USERS HOSTAGE!

As if we haven’t been insulted, harmed and ruined enough by Yahoo’s ridiculous Neo change, the latest move is even worse. Now we can’t LEAVE!

Yep, you heard me right. Now when group owners attempt to delete a group, nothing happens. The delete option is unavailable to us.  Now when group users attempt to leave a group, they can’t. So many people are having this problem and now find themselves trapped in the Yahoo Neo Matrix.

"Major Glitch with Delete/remove/leave group Functions going on"
https://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/5147930

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!

No company should be allowed to force users to remain in a broken, buggy system that does not work. This Neo upgrade has been harming users for over 4 months and hurting the disabled and elderly! The disabled have been suffering in silence for months because they are unable to voice their issues. We have taken up their cause – in particular, the SayNoToNeo Group.  This is a group of teens and tweens who have been tirelessly working with 9,000 combined members in that group and their mailbag group to restore the format that the elderly and disabled could use! They are advocating their cause around the world on behalf of elderly and disabled everywhere, including their own friends and relatives.

The Neo format has caused great harm to these users – disabled having seizures and vertigo, PTSD users suffering episodes – and their special equipment doesn’t work with Neo. The elderly have been having confusion, stress and high blood pressure from being unable to participate in their groups. The Neo format is broken, having been rolled out buggy and untested, but even the features that work still make the groups unusable for these users.

Super tiny print, bad colors, flashing ads, etc. all make it impossible to use. Hidden controls, drop down menus that disappear, and other disguised mod functions make it impossible to navigate. Message archives have been turned into endless scrolls, even when the group has 50,000+ messages! Arthritic and disabled hands cannot scroll like that.

Even I, at 52 years old, have many, many problems with the Neo format and can rarely, if ever, use the interface anymore. I have to do it all from mail which causes a host of brand new issues. I can’t do the endless scroll either; it makes me dizzy and is also hard on my hands and wrists.

For 4 months we have endured all this, and for 116 days we have crusaded for justice for these users and for Yahoo to restore the previous Classic format that worked. THIS IS IT, YAHOO! You are running out of time. And not allowing us to delete our groups will NOT solve your issues because my teams and I will scream it out to the world until they hear us!!!!

Mail users got heard, and it’s past time for GROUP users to be heard, too! Look through this blog; read the stories of the users who have been harmed.  Look at the statistics and how many have left. And I now realize that I can’t update the count of those who are leaving because they can’t leave! Thus, no count.

Someone help us stop this madness! I ask the media to please tell the world what has been done and is being done to thousands and thousands of once loyal, core Yahoo users! Hurry, please tell our story before it is too late and nothing is left to save! The disabled and elderly deserve justice!

Nightowl >8#
Brenda

Update: Since this post, some people have had their delete functions restored, but not all. And Groups are still not working correctly. It’s January 21, 2014 and is now day #142 of our Crusade.

The Crumbling Walls Beneath Neo’s Facade

I have not told people much about how Neo has affected me. I’m not sure why, except maybe that I am not as severely affected as others. But the bottom line is that Neo has made everything 2 or 3 times as stressful in regard to Yahoo and the Internet for everyone.

Yahoo would have you believe that Neo is a shiny new interface that is just awesome and surpasses everything else, but in truth, it just had a sloppy coat of shiny paint thrown on it and then was slapped on top of Classic.

Yahoo would have you believe that Neo was created for mobile devices and that it is just wonderful, when the truth is it doesn’t work on mobile devices at all. It’s a major fail.

Yahoo would have you believe that Neo is being accepted and loved by all, or most, Yahoo users, but it’s simply not true. Group Users called for a return to Classic for 3 months in what I call the Feedback Trench (The Yahoo Uservoice) and were not heeded. 56,270 votes are currently on the top topic down there, with 6,135 comments, and that number changes by the second.

In the Mail trench, some Yahoo Mail users are convinced they will be heard, because they now have 95,492 votes  and 8,354 comments to return mail to classic in their top topic. Others know better and have just up and left. Yes, I know, that’s only one user gone per post. But what if I told you that there were 385 pages of those comments?

One user on October 8th posted:

>>Anonymous commented · October 8, 2013 8:36 am
Oh, I pay and I’m still getting the same lousy problems you are complaining about. Time to find a new email server.<< That was on October 8th, the last comment on page #385.

What if I told you that on every page I have looked at so far, there is at least one paid mail subscriber either complaining or leaving? PAID mail subscribers are revenue for Yahoo. They make a difference in the bottom dollar. AND THEY ARE LEAVING. If I had time tonight, which I don’t, I would go down and count EVERY single post where a user is leaving and give you that count. Just trust me when I say there isn’t a page of comments down there where someone isn’t talking about it.

Here is another comment:

>>Anonymous commented · October 8, 2013 5:53 pm
We are a large real estate firm established since 1948 in New York. I’ve favored Yahoo as it had a simple format. NOW you guys made a big mess of this site and I have 156 people angry and wasted a whole day going to other providers!! Get it back the way it was!!.From NY to California,from Grand Rapids to Galveston,TX I’ve heard the same thing….CHANGE YAHOO BACK THE WAY IT WAS!<<

Never were truer words spoken more clearly than that.

In the Sports Trench, there are 4,784 votes to change it back to the way it was and 449 comments in the top topic, in particular, to get rid of the black background. Who wants to see white text on black?

Not Ellen, who commented:

>>Ellen commented · October 19, 2013 4:19 am
White on black text is, quite literally, agonizing for people with visual problems or migraines. I can’t read web sites or look at blogs designed this way, and I know of many other people who have the same problem…It’s a basic principle of decent web design that extended texts (more than a menu button) should never be white on black. It’s too difficult for *anyone* to read.<<

AMEN to that!

Does Yahoo know what it is doing? I think not. Does it even realize the damage it has done to the loyal userbase it once had? No, I think not. So since it seems to be utterly clueless, I’m going to tell them what they have done.

Yahoo, listen up. You have crushed the hearts and souls of your most loyal users of Yahoo Groups and Mail.

You have done this by ignoring the cries of the elderly who can’t manage the Neo interface and for whom it is causing high blood pressure, disorientation, and, in many cases, despondency and depression. For some it was their only link to the outside world. Do you care if one of them has a stroke or worse? I think not.

You have done this by ignoring the cries of the disabled, who are having seizures, vertigo and blinding headaches; who cannot handle the flashing ads or flickering controls. You have made their screen readers unusable and their voice recognition software null. But do you care? I think not.

You have done this by ignoring the seriously ill users (both physically and mentally ill) who relied on their groups for a lifeline, literally. For some users, these were the things that kept them going, kept them alive. But do you care? I think not.

You have done this by ignoring users who are cut off from critical support, suicide hotlines, and more. There have been at least three users who wanted to kill themselves because of this drastic change from Classic. Do you care? I think not.

You have done this by disrespecting war veterans who have used these groups to stay in touch with one another, relive their glory days, and share their stories. You destroyed their archives; one person, in particular, had years of precious archives gone. And when one informed Jeff Bonforte that Neo was insulting and upsetting to them because it reminded them of Neo Nazis, did he care? No, I think not.

Those are the users who are most impacted, but I’m certainly NOT forgetting the rest of us.

You have done this by using Neo like a bulldozer to destroy our wonderful, beloved Classic groups. It removed our colors and custom home page designs and photos. It scrambled our photo albums and rendered our databases unusable. Do you care? I think not.

You have done this by allowing Neo to screw up what archives we could see and dump them into a never-ending scroll that even I, at age 52, could NOT handle for long and many people with hand/arm issues CANNOT handle at all. And when they told you, did you care? I think not.

You have done this by taking away our access to our precious classic archives after someone found us a way in, disabling it before we could save everything! Tell me, why would a public company such as Yahoo not allow users to retrieve their precious photos, messages, and memories? Someone tell me the answer to that. Do you plan to answer? I think not.

You have done this by destroying users’ connections to one another, by devastating many to the point of tears, and by angering others to the point of rage, such as when the teen group network of 130,000 had to disband because nothing functioned anymore. Do you care about the heartbreak you’ve caused those kids? I think not.

You have done this by making sure that one day when we woke up, everything we had known, used, and loved for many many years was suddenly just gone. And did Yahoo care? I think not.

You have done this by creating chaos in Yahoo Mail, removing tabs, and causing some users to scream for Classic and others to just run for the hills. You have even done this to PAYING mail users and are losing revenue because of that. And do you care? I think not…but you should.

You have done all this and still seem so clueless, like you don’t see all the destruction around you, just under the surface of Neo. You don’t seem to see the broken lives, destroyed archives, heartbreak, and sorrow. All you see is Neo and with it, shiny new dollars.

Well, I have news for you. What you have done is not going to bring you shiny new dollars. It is not going to increase your revenue. You have managed to devastate YUsers almost across the board to the point that over half a million are gone already, and more follow them every day.

Neo can’t bring you the shiny new dollars you want because the investors know about our exodus and are looking at the numbers NOW; they don’t care what the numbers might be in two years. Advertisers are being told of the exodus and how their ads are being abandoned in droves.

So now, as we stand together in this crusade against Neo, it’s become a lot more personal to us. You just seem to continue to hurt and mistreat your users and are continually adding victims to your roster. Groups, Mail, Sports, Flickr…what’s next?

I don’t know the answer to that question.

But I know the answer to this one.

What’s next for us?

We are going to stand together and fight together and tell the world what you, Yahoo, has done until we are treated with decency and respect by you again and given the right to once again access our classic groups and save our archives at the very least.

And if that doesn’t happen soon? Sayonara, Yahoo….we’ll be gone, and the whole world will know why we left. Would you care?

Think about it, because you should.

Nightowl >8#

IT MAKES ME SICK…

Some people that have been using Yahoo Groups for years without issue have reported various heath issues isnce Yahoo began rolling out Neo; in a recent update to the terms of service, Yahoo gave a response that chills me to the bone:

e. A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF USERS MAY EXPERIENCE EPILEPTIC SEIZURES WHEN EXPOSED TO CERTAIN LIGHT PATTERNS OR BACKGROUNDS ON A COMPUTER SCREEN OR WHILE USING THE YAHOO SERVICE. CERTAIN CONDITIONS MAY INDUCE PREVIOUSLY UNDETECTED EPILEPTIC SYMPTOMS EVEN IN USERS WHO HAVE NO HISTORY OF PRIOR SEIZURES OR EPILEPSY. IF YOU, OR ANYONE IN YOUR FAMILY, HAVE AN EPILEPTIC CONDITION, CONSULT YOUR PHYSICIAN PRIOR TO USING THE YAHOO SERVICE. IMMEDIATELY DISCONTINUE USE OF THE YAHOO SERVICES AND CONSULT YOUR PHYSICIAN IF YOU EXPERIENCE ANY OF THE FOLLOWING SYMPTOMS WHILE USING THE YAHOO SERVICE: DIZZINESS, ALTERED VISION, EYE OR MUSCLE TWITCHES, LOSS OF AWARENESS, DISORIENTATION, ANY INVOLUNTARY MOVEMENT, OR CONVULSIONS.

The reason this paragraph gives me chills is that it is simply Yahoo’s way of say that if the movement of ads and other on-screen elements of the site make you sick, you shouldn’t expect Yahoo to do something about it, but should instead cease using their service, even though it is their service and the ads or other on-screen elements THAT THEY PUT THERE that are the cause. It also give me chills because I know that there are caring developers out there that will move heaven and earth (figuratively speaking) to please their users.

I used to play the Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game City of Heroes, and while I was a very active participant in the game and on the forums, I read of certain game visual effects that cause players with certain medical conditions to experience illness when exposed to them. I also read with interest of the efforts by the game development team to find suitable substitutes that could fit with the specific abilities thematically, while not causing the health issues; it took time, and a rearrangement of the development team, but eventually both the developers and players were happy with the outcome.

Yahoo know about this situation that they have created, they know they can do something about it, and we, the users, both those affected and those not, know they  know, but will they be adult enough to admit they have created it and have an obligation to us to fix it? Or will they hide behind the few lines of text I quoted above, the very same lines that are printed in every video game manual that I have ever seen in the 15+ years I have been using computers, which Cryptic Studios and Paragon Studios could have done, but instead did something about it?

SEIZED BY NEO

BLIND IMPACT

OWL:
I discovered this in late August
I’ll let his words speak for themselves:
***********
26 August 2013
YahooGroups Changes
It seems that yahoogroups is deciding to take a go-around at making things worse for people with disabilities- following googles run of the same not too long ago.

Yahoogroups has changed things so that there are no settings controls that you can change. They have removed the simple non-graphic banners with this horrible mixture of neon colors that makes me so sick, I have to run for the bathroom. It messes with me in a vertigo way as well as sending me into seizures. There is NO WAY to block their banners as they are not done like ads, but are a part of the script that can not be blocked.

********************************

You can read the rest of his story at:

http://throughguideseyes.blogspot.com/2013/08/yahoogroups-changes.html

Reposted by Owl

THE TREASURE OF OUR CLASSIC GROUPS

I am Nightowl >8#  aka @FeatheredLeader

I’m the owner of the Mods and Members Yahoo Group that was involved in stopping the 2010 Remodel of our Classic Groups.

You may have heard that Yahoo has now changed our beloved groups into the chaos that they call Neo.  This is far worse than in 2010.

In 2010, we had warning. We had notice and time to rescue data “in case” We were better able to cope when the change happened, but it still failed to function for most Classic Groups. You see, Yahoo just doesn’t get what a treasure that they had with that feature.

Our Classic Groups were created with love, customized, and maintained, some for many, many years. They were so much more than social networks. In fact, they were, in many cases, our homes or our special places, and they served such a diverse group of people by having so many different ways they could be used.

Yes, they were so much more than places to get together and chat. There were the education sites, where people tutored one another, teachers exchanged, and students did homework together.

There were the support sites, for everything from Alzheimers to suicide – places where people depended on one another to stay calm, sane, and healthy. Many bedridden people were able to access the outside world only through their support groups.

There were medical sites where people exchanged health information and doctors communicated directly with homebound patients. Nurses could click and have the information for the doctors just like that.

There were military sites and veteran’s sites – places where veterans of all wars could stay in touch with each other, communicate, and share stories and history. Archives of messages and photos created a timeline back to their past.

There were the memorial sites set up for loved ones who had died or where the owner died and someone inherited the group and maintained it to preserve their memory. I am actually a member of such a site; we lost our owner, but the site lived on.

There were research sites where scientific communities worked, shared ideas, and brainstormed. They used the tools there to assist them: data bases, files, and links. They compiled data and created huge archives of  information.

There were genealogy sites with links to the past for so many families, and there were family sites where relatives could stay in touch. There was a calendar tool they could use for birthdays and other events. They could share photos, memories, and love.

There were the skilled craft sites covering a wide range  of everything  from egg art to quilting. They shared their techniques, their crafts, and their photos. They had events, shows, and workshops.

There were the hobbyists from automobile clubs to shortwave radio enthusiasts – a place to get together and enjoy something they all cared about, making friends in the process.

There were the entertainment and movie groups for everything from Animal House to Star Wars. People could keep their favorite movies alive there forever. My favorite movie is James Cameron’s Titanic. 😉

There were the sports groups where people followed their favorite teams whether they were the NHL Anaheim Ducks or the New York Yankees! Personally, I’m a hockey owl. My favorite teams are the Penguins, Sharks, Ducks, Coyotes, and Blues!

There were the various music groups from jazz to rock and roll, both about playing it and about listening to it. Church choir groups and rock band groups all had a place to come and share info.

There were the technical and computer groups that offered free tech support to anyone who needed it, learning, growing, and upgrading together.

There were the service groups from adoptees’ parent searches to veterans’ assistance. They played a role as people used them, bringing people together and finding them help in their various quests.

There were animal and pet groups for everything from dogs to turtles – groups where veterinarians gave advice online and people learned how to care for pets or helped rescue dogs get adopted.

I could go on and on and on, and I would have to in order to truly show the world exactly what these Classic Groups really were and what they meant to us. Classic Groups were not just a type of social network. They were whole communities, each with its own purpose.

So why do I say, “they WERE?”

Because, like a thief in the night, Yahoo’s Neo came and destroyed them. The broken, buggy interface called Neo was sprung upon unsuspecting users with no warning, no notice. This time we didn’t have a chance. Everything was instant chaos.

The first wave happened overnight, and the next morning users discovered the devastation. Home page photos and decor were gone, replaced by canned pictures, some actually offensive to the groups where they were displayed. Messages were now in a long endless scrolling stream. Moderation tools were hidden and even when found, didn’t work.  Colors so lovingly created and custom pages were all reduced to gray writing on white with glaring purple edges.

In a flash, some users lost everything. Archives were decimated or unreachable. Photos were removed from albums that were now in complete disarray. Even some whole groups were completely missing. Links were broken, databases didn’t function, and moderation was even a failure in many cases. Some personal and private information was even accidentally made public to 19,000 users in the Freecycle groups.

It was as if someone had come and set fire to our “homes” and watched them burn as we scrambled out…then bulldozed the remains flat. Worst of all, though, was the impact it had on the disabled and elderly.

Disabled users discovered that they couldn’t stop the glaring, flashing ads now being displayed on the pages. They began to have seizures, headaches, and vertigo. Those with sight problems found that their screen readers and tools didn’t work with the Neo interface.

Those with motor skill deficiencies, especially in their hands, found they could not manage the “manic mouse shuffle,” as many called it, to click on things. They also found that they couldn’t tolerate the endless scrolling, and the voice programs some used also failed to work.

To give an example of that, there was one group that had 150,000 messages, and since we could no longer page back a page at a time, they had to scroll endlessly to get to them since at first, all new posts in many groups were appearing at the bottom.

The elderly found they also couldn’t use it. They were suddenly cut off from the outside world, unable to communicate with their WWI groups, their bridge groups, or their families.  Many experienced confusion, depression, and high blood pressure.

Neo was sleek, yes; it was new, yes. But it never had a chance to replace Classic.  It simply doesn’t function in the ways most groups need.

Users have been cut off from their support groups, their friends, their families, and in some cases (such as the bedridden),  their connection to the outside world because although it was made to work on mobile devices, it doesn’t. It’s a failure.

Thousands and thousands of complaints and pleas to return to Classic Groups and let us rescue out archives and our memories have been largely ignored by Yahoo. Canned replies of “We care” or “We’re working on it” are all we get. No one in the Groups community believes they care. I don’t believe it anymore.

But “I” care. And when I went to the uservoice Feedback area, a place I like to call the “Feedback Trench,” on August 31, 2013, and saw the despondency, the sorrow, the heartbreak and confusion, and the chaos Neo had caused millions of loyal users, I felt their pain. I felt their heartbreak, and I vowed to help them.

So here we are again: a new CEO, a new Interface, and a new Crusade. And I intend to see it through, because if we allow Yahoo to get away with such cruel and disrespectful treatment of people, including the disabled and elderly, other companies will do the same.

We deserve respect. We deserve accommodation. We deserve our groups back. We certainly do not deserve this.

And I’m going to fight until we win or until every last Groups user flees the sinking Yatanic for safer shores.

Nightowl >8#

If you would like to see the documentation for this post, send me an e-mail at owlsy@yahoo.com and I’ll provide the links to you.

And anyone may repost this anywhere they choose.